Today we're talking with Aaron Moystner, a muzzleloading enthusiast with a taste for muzzleloading shotgun competition. Aaron is a lifelong muzzleloading shooter whose grandfather got him started at the age of 4. As Aaron got older, his grandfather would bring Aaron and a step stool to local matches so Aaron could shoot. While Aaron enjoys all aspects of muzzleloading, his current focus is muzzleloading shotguns and competing with them.

In this episode, Aaron answers some questions many of us have about muzzleloading shotguns and discusses some of the differences between hunting and competition muzzleloaders. We dive deep into the different kinds of matches out there as well as the thought process of a competition shooter.

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Episode Links

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Questions asked in this episode:

How did you get your start in muzzleloading?

What’s your current focus on muzzleloading?

What eras do you enjoy and what do you enjoy about them?

Muzzleloading shotguns are a whole universe of themselves, there’s so much depth:

Can you tell me a little bit about muzzleloading shotguns, and how vast the offerings are?

What are your favorite matches to shoot with a muzzleloading shotgun?

Is there much crossover in the skills of shooting a muzzleloading shotgun and modern shotguns?

Are you hunting much with muzzleloaders/muzzleloading shotguns?

Do you hunt with the same shotguns you shoot competition with?

What tips do you have for folks new to muzzleloading?

Episode Transcript

Muzzleloading: A Lifelong Passion

Aaron Moyster started shooting muzzleloaders at the age of four

Ethan: Hi, I'm Ethan. I love muzzle loading. Today we're talking with Aaron Moystner about muzzle loading competitions, specifically getting into muzzleloading shotgun competitions as they happen, at the national muzzleloading rifle association in friendship, Indiana. Aaron is a lifelong muzzleloading enthusiast. He started shooting muzzleloaders at the age of four and has found his way to muzzle loading shotgun competition. I think he enjoys it primarily because of the variety and the camaraderie that he finds within it. It's a really interesting conversation, I think, about a niche within a niche here in muzzle loading. I, learned a lot through the discussion. I've been hanging around Aaron quite a bit here lately, trying to soak up some of the muzzleloading shotgun knowledge. So I hope you enjoy this episode.

Aaron: My name is Aaron Moystner I am an NMLRA member. I've been shooting muzle loaders since I was four years old. my grandpa really started building offhand rifles and, built, all of his daughters won, all of his grandkids won. And then he noticed that I was really, starting to take a fond liking to the black powder lifestyle, and built me another one. And I've been shooting down at friendship since I was seven. I think I was shooting down there at friendship when I was seven or eight, but I've been shooting black powder muzzler since I couldn't even hold the end of the barrel out. My dad helped the end of the barrel, and he just said, align these sights the best you can and pull the trigger. And as soon as I got that smell in my system, I was ready to load it up again.

Ethan: Man, you were into it at that point?

Aaron: Yeah, there wasn't no stopping me at that point.

Ethan: So your family then you had some family involvement in it before you came?

Aaron: were part my grandpa was part of the muzzleloaders club, which was out of j county, Indiana. and first Saturday of the month. Ah. All the time. Every month on that Saturday, he'd pick me up and we'd go shoot muzzle loaders. the muzzlers were so tall, he had to bring a stump with me so that way I could stand on that stump just to load the muzzle. My grandpa built. I think it was a total of 36 offhand muzlers. and honestly, my mom, she comes down to friendship, and she still shoots the same muzzler that he built her. I think we did the math this year. It was, like, 40 years ago, he built that muzzler, and she's still knocking the x's out of the targets.

Ethan: Man, that's incredible. I love hearing that you're holding on to that family history like that. That's so important.

Aaron: Yeah. it's something that people we can't control how our lives kind of go, but we're keepers of the past. We're just going to keep this as long as we can, but then we pass it on to the next generation the best that we can.

Ethan: Yeah, I think that's a sentiment I hear. It echoed, through a lot of the folks I talk to and a lot of people I hang out with just in muzzleloading. That's something that always comes up is, regardless of your interest, we're all kind of the stewards of history in the past there, like you put it.

Aaron: Yeah, we got to keep it moving.

So you kind of got started there in offhand, uh, just kind of traditional muzzle it

Ethan: So you kind of got started there in offhand, just kind of really core traditional muzzle it and competition just shooting offhand like that. what's your current focus? Are you still shooting that offhand or are you working into something different?

Aaron: So I really got hot and heavy into the offhand guns. Just like many of thousands of people that have shot muzzle loaders, they get into the offhand guns, they get into the traditional style of shooting. and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I still love to shoot my offhand gun. I still shoot some local competitions with it every now and then. but I have really kind, of converted myself, to the shotguns. So I shoot muzleloading trap, muzleing shotgun trap, skeet, sporting clays, and then, of course, quail walk down at Friendship.

Ethan: Nice.

What draws you to the competition side of things

Ethan: So what draws you to the competition side of things? Are you naturally competitive or are you just always trying to improve on what you did the last time you were out?

Aaron: I think it's definitely that you're only as good of a shooter as your competition is. So if I can shoot my backyard and I'm doing pretty good by myself, I may think, well, I'm the best there is out there. But then you start getting yourself around other people that are, doing even better at, ah, even longer distances, harder birds, different lows, different shotguns. It makes you a better shooter and a better competitor, obviously. So I want to say that I'm a competitive person. I mean, everybody loves to win, right? But a bad day of shooting is better than a good day anywhere else in my mind.

Ethan: Right.

Aaron: I love the camaraderie of shooting with other people, whether we're just competing, whether we're competing together, or really just hanging out on the range, burning some powder.

Ethan: Yeah, that's something I really enjoy about watching the shotgun matches at Friendship. I like to go down there in the evenings because there's not a whole lot going on shooting wise. But the shotgun ranges are lit and so you can go down there and watch. And, it's always fun to see as you guys walk back to the loading benches, there's some goofing back and forth. There's some razzing about how the rounds are going. it's very serious once you get out there and you get posted up waiting for the bird. But there is kind of that family of other shooters there that you're spending time with I think is just really nice to see.

Aaron: Yeah, we have an absolute blast. I'm very, biased on my feelings towards ranges. I've loved every range that I've shot on. But so far the shotgun line is just a family, from everybody, every aspect. Even the most competitive shooter out there, Mr. Matt McGraw, he is the nicest person out there and you can talk to him or anybody at any point in the day. The serious time is about 4 seconds to 5 seconds before they get set up on a station and holler pull for that bird. But after that, we all razz each other and have an absolute blast. And, it really is a family down there on the trap line. Obviously, every shooter has a family in each one of their ranges, but you really feel like you're one of us when you're down on the trap line. Even if you, like you said, even if you're not a competitor, you're down there just watching the night matches like Calcutta and doubles and single barrel five stand. You just feel like a warm welcome, I think, going into it.

Ethan: Absolutely.

There is a vast variety of muzzle loading shotguns out there

Ethan: So muzzle loading shotguns, I have found, are kind of a whole universe of themselves because there's so much depth, there's a lot of depth on just the traditional side. And then you look at what has happened in the 20th and now the 21st century when it comes to muzzle loading shotguns, there's just an incredible amount of depth there. Can you tell me a little bit about muzzle hitting shotguns and a little bit about the variety that's out there?

Aaron: Yeah, there's really something for everybody when it comes to the shotgun line, we've got so many people, I know that Jody Baxter, he shoots a lot. I think a majority of his guns are underhammers underhammer shotguns. Matt McGraw builds underhammer shotguns and competes with one, then you can go from underhammers to I've seen several side slappers and that are either over under, they can be single barrel M. I've seen several in line per se. In the actual technical term of an inline I personally shoot an over under. Vic Beeson built inline twelve gauge down to I mean we have everything, even for the truest purest traditionalist. We have flint locks that are flintlock. We have Flint Lock championships, we have double barrel Flint Lock, side by sides, original guns from that old century that when you compete in those matches, you must have an original one, eight hundreds flint lock or percussion shotgun that are only going to compete in that match. So there is a vast variety of everything that's shot down there, I think.

Ethan: Aside from the night matches, just because it's cool to see the black powder going off at night. The originals matches are some of my favorite as well, because you see what many people would consider to be wall hangers or art pieces or museum pieces going through a brutal, like, 50 to 100 bird match. And it's just amazing to see them going through that marathon. You have a 200 year old gun that's shooting right alongside newly built race guns. It's just incredible.

Aaron: And not just shooting against them. I mean, whooping them? Oh, yeah. An amazing job. it's a little more technical terms here, but no, let's get into it. Matt McGraw shoots an eight bore original shotgun. Okay? So when he loads that eight bore, he's loading that to have the same speed as his modern shotgun. Even though it's 200 or 100 and some years old, he is still loading that gun the way that they would have loaded it back in the day to put food on the table. It's remarkable. And like I said, not just shooting it just to shoot it. He is shooting it and winning, crushing. I mean, the 50 bird. Or there's an original gun championship match that's I believe it's 50 birds. And if I recall correctly, I think he hit 50 for 50. If not, he might have dropped one bird. But I think he ran that match with his original gun.

Ethan: Man, that's just cool.

Jeff: I had a Vic Beeson conversion on my shotgun

Ethan: When you said you had a Vic Beeson conversion, talk me through that a little bit. What did that shotgun start out as? And what did you do or what did you have done to turn it into a muzzle loading shotgun? Because that's something that I'm running into. Talking about some of the competitive side of muzzle loading shotguns is immediately what people go to, which is very understandable, is a side by side double barrel shotgun or a single barrel percussion shotgun or a fouling piece of some kind. But there's a lot more variety once you get into this space.

Aaron: Yeah. Which I've never even touched on the Fowler side, that is a side of the shotguns that I've never played with and I've never, really had a burning desire to play with. But we have many Fowlers down there that shoot on the trap range. but when it comes to it's, not really a conversion per se. It is actually made to be a muz loading shotgun. So what he did is mine, per se exactly, is a Remington 870 barrel, that he has put a breach plug in. And he made a stock to go on that and converted the whole I guess it would be converted sort of in the action side. He machined out the back end of it, made it to where it has a plunger and a spring. Put a plug in the back of that Remington barrel, and it's got a number eleven cap. And mine's a twelve gauge. And I'm shooting ounce and an 8th of three F gox, and an ounce and an 8th even, of, seven and a half shot.

Ethan: Are you running any kind of choke on the front end?

Aaron: Yeah, it's choke full for trap.

Ethan: Okay.

Aaron: Now, it's not a screw in choke, right? It's a fixed choke.

Ethan: Fixed choke. Okay. So somebody out there with the parts for a modern shotgun could go through that process, and turn that into a muzzle loading shotgun in that kind of manner. Not that it would be necessarily to the same level of Mr. Beast in here, but that's kind of the process that's happening.

Aaron: Yes, exactly. Yes. You could do that 100%. You could take yourself an 870 barrel, tap the breach of it and put a plug in and put your not a plug. That's not the right word I want to use. But tap the rear end of it, put a breach back there, basically, for a number eleven cap. And that receiver is all machined out in the back and it is all put together with a plunger and a spring with a back screw. And it shoots phenomenal. But actually, anybody could do that with machinist skills. But Matt McGraw, so Vic Beeson, he was out of the Indianapolis area and since passed, I think he passed probably, I'd venture to say, eight or nine years ago, I would guess. but Matt McGraw, is actually making those duplicates. I mean, they are the exact same gun, still using those 870 barrels, still using the same, similar stock pattern. and people are having phenomenal luck with them. I mean, very good, very good, performance out of them.

Ethan: Right. To circle back a little bit here. For somebody that might not be familiar with the shotgun competitions, especially at the Nmlra, when you're talking about shooting trap with these muzzle loading shotguns, that's just your typical trap like you would shoot with a modern shotgun, right? I mean, it's just the same thing.

Aaron: Yes. So we have at friendship, we have ten, yard, 1620 yard, and then with our lovely brand new field, that we have down there, the trap range that we have.

Ethan: Absolutely.

Aaron: I think we are going to be putting a, ah, 27 yard match in for muzzle loaders that we are going to be shooting muzle loading shotguns at 27 yards. all of our matches are, 15 birds to 20 birds. There are some specialty matches. Like, we have the, Jeff Heimlich match. It's the Jeff Heimlich memorial. it's a 20 bird match. You shoot ten birds at 16 yards. If you hit seven or more of those birds, you move back to 20 yards and shoot the remaining ten birds on that match at 20 yards. So if you shoot six or less, then you stay at 16 yards. okay, so, that's kind of a specialty match that we have down there. But yeah, we shoot ten yards, 16 and 20 yards. People are often m baffled that are not in, that don't go to a friendship or don't shoot muzzle loading shotguns. They say you shoot trap with a muzzle loader. How long does that take? Yeah, it's just not a quick five minute match. But you load up your gun, you put your powder, your overpowder wad, your cushion wad, your shot, your overshot wad, you walk out there to the station that you're on respectfully, and you call for the bird. You shoot the bird, you come back, you load it up again, and you do it 14 or 19 more times.

Ethan: Right. It sounds like it might be slow, but the efficiency of everybody there is really incredible. Both the range officers and the guys throwing the birds and how that works as well as the shooters. I mean, it's just constant motion, which I think, for me, is part of the fun of watching. It is just everybody's just going all the time. to me, like, coming from the competition side for muzzle loading, there's a lot of that head game when you go back to the bench to load, but it's one thing when you're on the pistol line or the bench line or the offhand line. It's a totally other one when you're walking by everybody that you're competing with or against, go back to your loading bench, and you have that extended loading process. I mean, it's just incredible.

Aaron: we kind of call that the squirrels start talking in your head. Yeah.

Ethan: Okay.

Aaron: You start getting up there, and you're thinking, man, I've hit 14 out of 14, or I've hit 14 out of 15 of this match. I got one more shot left. Well, if I hit this shot, well, I've just ran this 15 bird match. That's great. Then all of a sudden, you start thinking and thinking and thinking. Yeah. the squirrels start talking to you a little faster when you're down there, and you're not just not saying that the pistol line or the rifle line. It's easy. No, but you're not walking 20ft after every shot to say, okay, I hit that bird. That was perfect. Okay, now I need to load this up, and don't forget your powder, and don't forget your shot. And then walk out there, and then okay, well, what station did I just shoot? Well, what station am I on now? Okay. Now I'm ready. Now it's yellow. Okay, now make sure you follow through and make sure you get this. There's a lot that goes into it.

Our championship in the fall is 100 birds. Man, that's a marathon

Aaron: Yeah, but speaking of, like, speed, our championship in the fall is 100 birds. 100 birds with a muzzle loader at 16 yards. And a, really good budy of mine, Brandon Smith, I think we start that championship match at 08:00 a.m. And if I remember right, he'll probably tell me that I was totally wrong. But if I remember right, he shot 100 birds starting at 08:00 a.m., and it took him till, I think, 1230 to finish. 100 birds.

Ethan: Man, that's a marathon. I don't care what you're shooting, if you're shooting that long. Wow.

Aaron: Yeah. Guys can shoot doubles in that match. You can shoot a double barrel. So obviously that cuts your walking time down by half because you can go out there, shoot two shots instead of one. but still, 100 birds shooting from 08:00 A.m. Until 1230 just after lunch. Obviously, I think he did take maybe a couple of five minute just sit down, breathers. But it still, like you said, it's a marathon, man.

Ethan: Endurance is the name of the game when you're doing that, m mentally.

Aaron: And in that stands physically.

Ethan: Yeah, especially if it's a warm one down there, you start sweating, and that's a whole nother game.

Aaron: Especially because June is never really a nice, cool well, I guess this year was it. This year we had a nice, cool June, but chances are it's usually about 105 with 100% humidity, and you got 100 birds. So it's a lot, but it's always fun. We always enjoy razzing each other. And I'm going to forget, Matt McGraw missed his first bird. I think this was last year or two years ago. Don't quote me on that. But he shot his first bird and missed. Ran the next 99 straight.

Ethan: Oh, my gosh.

Aaron: You want to say to yourself, like, that's pretty impressive, 99 straight. But I think I'd kind of rather miss the last one than the first one. I don't know.

Ethan: You just had to get tuned in.

What are some of your favorite matches when you're shooting with the shotgun

Ethan: So what are some of the favorite matches that you enjoy when you're shooting with the muzzle looting, shotgun? We'll get into some of the non competition stuff a little bit later, but I'm really interested in the competitive side at the moment.

Aaron: Yeah. So I think competitiveness wise, when m it comes to the trap line, I think that there's a real serious camaraderie when it comes to that. Jeff heimlich match jeff heimlich meant a lot to a lot of people down there. Brian. Farmer and Blake Hamilton and Colt Doster and Lloyd Smith. And he meant a lot to a lot of these people that still shoot on that trap line. And that's a pretty serious match. People get real. I mean, we always have a good time. It's always fun. There's always talking and chitchat going on, but we really all take a really big heart to that match.

Ethan: Yeah.

Aaron: but man, the fun wise of it, and I love going back across the Cricket Friendship and jumping on the sporting clays range and quail walk. There's no place that I know of in the world that has a quail walk range like we have down there at Friendship.

Ethan: Yeah, I've not heard of one like it. Could you describe that a little bit for the listeners that may have not attended?

Aaron: So the quail walk range, it's a tinbird match. No matter what match you get into, you still get the same birds. so there might be a single barrel match, there might be a flint lock match, there could be a doubles match. Then you even go into report pair doubles. So you yell, pull. When that first bird comes out, you shoot, the next bird goes on the report of your gun. So you'll yell, pull. Bird comes out, bang. That next bird comes out, bang. Then you've got true pairs to where when you yell pull, both birds come out at the same time. So those are the separate matches that they have down there, amongst many more. But at the quail walk range, you walk into a woods to a wooded section and there's a line on the ground. You start at that, there's two lines. Actually, I should rephrase that. There's two lines on the ground. You start at the first line and you walk towards the next line, and you don't yell, pull. As your foot crosses that second line, the bird comes out just as you would if you were actually hunting. You're not going to be on a hunt. And yell, pull, and that quail flies out. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

Ethan: Right.

Aaron: As you're walking on the quail walk, you walk, your foot crosses that line, the trap thrower sees your foot hit that orange line and throws the bird. I would venture to say it's as close to a hunting scenario as you could get.

Ethan: Right. it's been described to me as like a shotgun woods walk kind of thing.

Aaron: Exactly. There's two stations, or four birds, because there's two birds per station. There's four birds in the woods. So there's two stations in the woods. The other eight no, what am I doing? Four. There's two, one, two. Yeah. The other four stations are outside of the woods. And, you call for the bird, as you would normally by yelling pole, or however your sign is, to get the bird called. But the birds are not trap birds. They are very hard, very challenging. They have rabbits, and we call one a mosquito because it's flying about 25, 30ft in the air and it is hauling the mail. I mean, it is flying across that sky and it's only about the size of, I'd probably say it's probably a two or three inch diameter, bird. And it is flying. So they've got the flying mosquito back there. That gets a lot of people, but no, for fun and even competition, I guess. Not to toot my own horn here, toot away, a blind squirrel finds the nut every now and then. But in the June shoot of this year, I was blessed to win the quail walk championship back there. And it was amazing. It was a blast. It was the first time that I've really dedicated some time to shoot the quail walk, and that is definitely an underrated course back there.

Ethan: That's awesome, man. I did not know that you won that there. That's congratulations, dude.

Aaron: Thank you.

Ethan: That's no small feat.

Aaron: It was kind of neat. I was on the last station, and, it's ten birds, five stations, and I had ran nine straight, and I was getting ready to shoot my last bird. And my last bird was that mosquito flying through there, and I missed it. And I turned around and they were like, well, congratulations. And I was like, Congratulations. I'm sure somebody else here dropped one. And they said no. In all the shoot offs, you had to hit eight. So you actually won it the station.

Ethan: Before you even got to the mosquito.

Aaron: Before I even got to the hardest target, I had already won it, but nobody had told me that, so they let me go through that whole thing. I dropped one bird and they said, Congratulations. it was fun. It's always a good time whether you're winning or you're not. It's still fun burning down there.

Ethan: Absolutely.

Going from trap to sporting clays requires a lot of learning curve

Ethan: you said in that run there that the birds aren't trap birds. For somebody like me, who's not necessarily as experienced in the shotgun side of things, are you talking about the flight path or the physical bird there?

Aaron: So, actually, a little bit of both. Okay, so there's several different types of clays. There's rabbits, which are probably about m four or five inches, probably four inches in diameter. But they're really thin. Yeah, they're pretty thin. So they can roll them on the ground at pretty fast speeds. then you've got, midis M-M-I-D-I midi birds. and those are just smaller than the regular sized trap birds. So they throw different sizes and dimensions, I guess I should say, of the clay targets, but they're not throwing them in the traditional, whatever that degree is, of a bird at that speed that you would see on the trap field. Okay, so you might have a bird going from left to right, 20ft out in front of you. I mean, going stupid fast. so it may not be just a simple up and flying bird. Not that the trap birds are simple, but it's just a different style of shooting and, following through and leading. Oh, my gosh, you could have a whole Ted Talk on leading a bird. When you lead a bird on the trap range, you may lead it a foot, up to three foot, maybe when I'm back there on the Quail walk or on sporting clays, obviously, on skeet range, I might lead a bird eight foot. It's just crazy. And that takes a lot for some people that don't normally shoot those matches, whether it's with a shot muzzle loading shotgun or a modern shotgun, to go from trap to go shoot sporting clays, it's a big difference. They say that you're not supposed to, quote, unquote, aim a shotgun. you point a shotgun, but I don't care what you say, I still, per se, aim my bead where I'd want that shot to go. And, like I said, I might lead a bird seven to 9ft. Yeah it's different. And then not only lead that bird, you need to get your peripheral vision, your soft focus kind of on that bird, lead the bird, pull, bang, your gun goes off and then continue to follow through and lead that bird. I mean there's a lot that goes to shotgun clay sports not just involving the muzleloading side just in general on top of I don't think my gun shoots the 1200ft/second, that the standard modern twelve gauge shell shoots but it's a lot everybody has their game that they want to play. There's a lot to shooting 500 yards on the long range line also.

Ethan: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Aaron: There's a lot to every sport but it definitely takes a learning curve so if I shoot trap for one day on Monday of the week long June or September, shoot. If I shoot trap on Monday and I'm shooting really good and then I go back and I shoot sporting clays on Tuesday my first match of sporting clays is not even going to be worth putting in the scorebook because I am so used to shooting trap right. That it's a different ballgame right.

Ethan: Even though it's the same muzzle loader, kind of the same targets, they are clays but it's that much of a change that you have to get reoriented when you go to that next game.

Aaron: Yeah it's just a different ballgame and not that it's like drastically oh my gosh, it's going to take me three days to get ready for this match but it's just a different muscle memory, your eyes are focused in a different spot and it's just different. But it's all fun and games we're all having a good time and obviously I've got several people down there that watch me shoot and help me and say hey, I don't know what you were doing but you're two foot behind it and you need to be four foot in front of it.

Ethan: you kind of get some coaches from the peanut gallery there.

Aaron: Yeah everybody helps everybody and a lot of people are very grateful for that.

Ethan: Yeah.

Doubles night matches are some of my favorite matches

Ethan: So when shooting these matches and we can kind of go back to trap here a little bit because I think it might be the kind of shooting that more people are familiar with here. Do you notice it being more difficult to follow up maybe on a second bird because of that black powder smoke?

Aaron: depending on the match and to kind of go into a little more detail on the matches when I shoot doubles so I love to shoot doubles. Doubles night matches are some of my favorite which all a doubles night matches is obviously you have to have a double barrel and when the birds come out of the trap house and they're in the same spot every time they come out with the same flight, same speed, same pattern every. Time. And in those situations, the black powder smoke does not get to me personally. It may get to other people. Obviously, the wind can change anything at any time down there. but it does not affect m me personally because I'm shooting one bird and then the other bird is in a totally different offset of my stance. So I can see that second bird just fine in the doubles night matches. Now, when we go to, a match like Calcutta, the birds might we threw a bird. You might as well call that bird the nightmare bird because when you called for the first bird and this is a true doubles situation to where when I yell, pull, both birds are thrown at the same time. So when I shot the first bird, it was right in front of me. Well, that's great, we can crush that first bird, but that second bird is coming right into my smoke from shooting that first bird. and you have to wait and I mean, that bird might be three foot off the ground before you can see was it was a nightmare. But I like hard birds. I like difficult situations. Like mean, I love to see anybody shoot great. I do. Like, Jeff Nunn was on fire down there shooting this year. I think he, I don't know if he dropped maybe two or three out of a 20 bird. Calcutta match, man. if anybody has watched our Calcutta matches, they are not easy, but that's a great score. I love seeing, 17 or 18 be the high score. I don't want just an easy oh, ah. Well, we're going to have five shoot offs because we had five people hit all the birds, right? I want to see the tough birds. I want to see the ones that are screaming 40 miles an hour coming right at me. And then you got another one that's coming off to the side from a left to right angle. Those are the birds that make you a better shooter. Shooting easy birds all day is not going to build your skill. You always have these guys, which, there's nothing wrong with that. If you're outside shooting, having fun, teaching and being safe, god bless you, I love it. But you see guys that are out in their backyard and the trap is two foot in front of them and they got a twelve gauge and they're shooting birds and they're hitting every single one. Well, that's great. I mean, you're going to hit every single one. That's phenomenal. But step back 30ft and see if you can keep on doing that. If you can keep on doing that, then you're building your skills. I mean, if you're hitting every single bird, then obviously you need to challenge yourself to have a little different situation. So I love building on my skill. I am not the best shooter, nor do I ever plan to be the best shooter, because I hope that the birds keep on getting harder and I keep on growing.

Ethan: Yeah.

Is there much of a crossover in the skills from muzzle hitting shotgun to modern shotguns

Ethan: So on that note, is there much of a crossover in the skills, from shooting a muzzle hitting shotgun to modern shotguns? Because I know you and other folks out there shoot just a modern trap match now and then.

Aaron: Yeah. So I don't think that the skill is any different. You still have to have your stance, your follow through, your lead. You still have to know what your site picture, per se, if you want to call the bead and the orange dot a site picture. But you still need to know when to pull the trigger. The only difference between modern and black powder is 100% speed. Now, can you load your black powder gun to have a similar speed? 100%. I know that, Matt McGraw, he shoots an eight gauge, and he swears by an eight gauge because he says if you shoot, M, I'm 99% sure this is what he says. This is his load. But he says if you shoot an eight gauge with ounce and five eight of powder and ounce and five eight of shot, even, you're going to get a similar speed to your modern gun, like a ten gauge or a twelve gauge. It's almost impossible to get the same speed for a modern gun. So he shoots oh my gosh. I think he told us down there in the fall that he shot 10,000 rounds just to practice. Just for practice for the fall shoot.

Ethan: Oh my gosh.

Aaron: And that is not even probably a close exaggeration. I think he literally shot let's lowball him. It may have been 8000, but I know that he shot at minimum 8000 rounds. Practice just for the fall shoot championship. Man, I don't know if that was with his modern gun or with his black powder gun.

Ethan: okay.

Aaron: But either way, he has his black powder gun. The speed of his shot is the same as his modern gun.

Ethan: So he can use them interchangeably in that sense.

Aaron: 100%. And he builds his stock around for his black powder gun. He builds his stock around his modern gun. So the weight, the feel, the swing, all of that is the exact same as his modern gun. I love that. Yeah. Just like on every range, there's a lot of science and math that goes into making the best black powder shotgun, just like it does with slug gun and the long range line and pistols. I mean, everybody makes it as no nonsense as possible, and it does not stop at the trap range.

Ethan: Yeah, absolutely. So do you figure that Matt is looking at it as he needs the diameter of that eight gauge or that eight bore you're talking about to be able to get enough in can if, I'm following that.

Aaron: Yeah, you can shoot ounce and five eight or ounce and three quarters I would say reasonably safe because obviously, safety is key for everything.

Ethan: Absolutely.

Aaron: Out of a twelve gauge. Now, you're going to know it went off some ridiculous oil, but that's where the eight bore comes in. Okay, eight ah gauge bore, however you want to call it. But, that eight gauge he can load that thing up with, man. I know that during the shoot offs when we were shooting back there at like 27 yards, I think he was putting like two and a quarter ounces even in that, man. I mean, you knew the gun went off and he's not chipping birds. He is disintegrating bird at 27 yards. I mean, there's no question of, well, did he nick that right there?

Ethan: No, the bird is just gone.

Aaron: It's gone. You try to knock them, but when the birds are breaking, you kind of just got to say, yes, I guess that works. M Matt.

Ethan: That's fascinating. I love that kind of scientific or home shop science, however you want to look at that aspect of muzzle loading competition, because you're really getting down into, this is what I have to work with. Everything has to go in from the muzzle. This is the ignition source that I have. And what can I do to optimize this 100 and 5200 year old loading system? Because nothing has changed.

Aaron: Yeah, they're still shooting the same stuff. I'm shooting go x three F. I'm, shooting, mike eaters with Flint Locks, LLC. I'm shooting his wads. I'm shooting homemade shot. I mean, my shot does not look perfectly spherical. My shot probably wouldn't be able to run through a, mech, reloader for shotgun shells because it's not that perfectly round, but I'm shooting it in a muzzle loader. We don't have any shot cups. We're just putting this lead right against the boar and we're pulling and praying that God's with us to break the birds.

Ethan: Pulling, m, and praying. I love that.

Aaron: Yeah, it is what it is, but we're just down there just to try to break as many birds as possible and have a good time doing it.

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Aaron: Yeah, just like I mean, and when, like, when you talked about who is possible to do this, does it come to age? An, age category to male, female? We have women's championships and women's matches. And I tell you right now, we have some amazing women's shooters down there that would give any guy a run for their money on the trap line.

Ethan: Oh, yeah. The couple of matches I saw in September, there was some pretty good ribbon going back and forth there. it's really neat. I think it's really refreshing for me to see it at Friendship, especially just the variety of shooters. I mean, you have big guys up there, six plus feet tall, that are just kind of jacked. They're just big dudes out there shooting. And then you have the whole range all the way down to Petite, but will just shoot the daylights out of it. Ladies and kids down there, that's just incredible. And they're all just having fun.

Aaron: Yeah, I think that's one thing that I would personally I'm, biased, obviously, but I would consider shooting 100% a sport. Like you said, walking for 100 birds, 20ft all the time. That gets on you physically and then to keep your composure, gets on you mentally. And we've got young kids like, Caden Farmer. He's down there. I think he'll turn 16 this year. Ran a match. I mean, ran 20 birds. And then it wasn't just a match. It was the dove match, which has the birds flying. I mean, they might be 20ft in the sky, and they may be three foot off the ground. And 20 birds. And he ran it. I didn't even know anybody's ever ran it. And I asked him, I said, hey, how'd you shoot that? He said, I hit them all. I was like, no way. Seriously? He's like, yeah, I ran them. I'm like, all 20. Yes. Smoked them. I'm like, oh, my gosh, I couldn't ever. I'd miss my fifth bird and quit.

Ethan: Right?

Aaron: Yeah.

Ethan: You're just kind of like, oh, wow.

Aaron: Yeah. And then we've got guys like Jack True Love down there. I think he's 85. I know he's mid to late eighty s and he loads up his gun, puts it in a walker and he has a little gun rack with a lock so it's all safe. Puts it on his walker, wheels his walker to his station, unhooks his gun, pulls it out, shoots the bird, puts it back in there and takes it back and reloads mid to late eighty s and he is still burning powder and breaking birds with the best of them.

Ethan: I hope we can all be doing that when we're that age. Come on.

Aaron: I just told mom the other day, I said, if it comes down to the point where I am in a car wreck or something and I can't go shoot and yell pole and break birds, I said, you might as well just pull the plug on me because I don't even see much point of living anymore.

Ethan: Right?

Aaron: Yeah. It's a great place with great people.

Ethan: Absolutely.

You go turkey hunting with a Thompson Center encore muzzling rifle

Ethan: So are you able to do a lot of hunting with your muzzle loaders or your muzzle loading shotguns?

Aaron: I have, here and there. So I do go turkey hunting with my I've got a Thompson Center encore and thankfully Thompson Center made a 209 ignition by twelve. So a lot of people know about the encore 209 x 50, which is just the 50 caliber 209 ignition, muzzling rifle, but they made a 209 x twelve encore barrel. And I do go hunt with that for turkey. about the past three or four years I've been taking my over under, number eleven cap in line, that Vic Beeson made. I've been taking that, pheasant and quail hunting just on put and take hunts. No wild birds or nothing, but just on put and take hunts. And it's been oh my gosh, it's more fun than you can shake a stick at, I'm telling you for a fact.

Ethan: I'd love to do that someday.

Aaron: Yeah. you get guys out there and of course I always ask the dog handlers, I'm like, hey, are the dogs going to be good if Smoke comes out? And they're like, what do you mean? I'm hunting like a muzzle? Or they're like, nah. Are you serious? As I'm putting on my possibles bag, running my ram rod through my possible slings, and they're like, Wait, seriously? I'm like, yeah, well, you ain't going to hit nothing with that. What are you doing? Just playing with it. I'm like, whatever, man.

Ethan: Yeah, let's go.

Aaron: You'll see here? You'll see? Just let a bird fly. You'll see? So it's always a good time seeing, like I said, not saying that I'm the best shooter in the world, but it's always a good time when a, bird flushes and three guys miss with a twelve gauge modern gun. And here I am like, I'll just give it like a four or five foot lead out there, it'll be all right. Boom. That gun goes off, that bird drops and all their jaws are just on the ground. Did you hit that? I'm like, well, yeah, I hit it. What is that? Twelve gauge muzle loader. Not just another piece of junk. it's always downplayed by a lot of society. That's nothing. You're not going to do anything good with that. Well, little do they know, it's efficient and way more fun than a modern.

Ethan: Absolutely. Yeah. The extra steps aren't a hindrance. They kind of add enjoyment to it.

Aaron: No, and like I said, I got that double barrel. If one bird flashes, I just tell everybody, let's take a little break here. we'll all take a little breather while I start reloading. I go ahead and reload. Then they're like, oh, you ready? I'm like, yeah, I'm waiting on you guys having to reload my gun here.

Ethan: Catch your breath, guys. Let's go.

Aaron: Just making excuses. Yeah.

Ethan: that's all part of the fun.

Aaron: Yeah, it's a blast, though, but yeah. And I've not killed a turkey with that encore barrel, but maybe one of these days it'll happen.

Ethan: This coming year, man, it's going to be a good year.

Aaron: Yeah. Well, fingers crossed. The hardest part about turkey hunting, I think you said you got quite a few turkeys up in northern Indiana, but I'm over here, east central Indiana and turkeys are far and few between. So that gun is good to about 30, 40 yards. I'd feel very confident in killing a bird at that distance with that gun.

Ethan: Man, that's awesome.

What tips would you have for somebody that was new to muzzle loading

Ethan: So what tips would you have for somebody that was new to muzzle loading? We can go broad here, we can go shotgun specific, but I always like to ask this question.

Aaron: Yeah, I think the best thing for anybody that is even just slightly curious on black powder is don't be shy and don't be scared to look like a fool. You got to ask questions, get around people that are already acquainted with it. meet people online. the I Love Muzleloading group that you and me that you started, but we're all on that is such a great asset, to somebody that's new. I mean, you can find so much information on, think if I told that to my grandpa if he was still alive, like Facebook groups. You're getting information off of Facebook groups.

Ethan: Sometimes you want to make sure that you're reading both sides because, sometimes the answer is in between.

Aaron: Yeah, there's just so much information out there. I'm sure most or a lot of listeners might not be within Friendship driving range, but man, just don't be scared to go up to somebody at friendship either. Especially on the shotgun, line, the trap line, any of those lines on there that shoot shotgun. Don't be scared to go up to somebody and say, what is that? What are you shooting? How do you load it? And chances are I'd venture to say 99.9% of anybody down there on the trap line would say, do you want to shoot it? We'll load up some and you can shoot it. I think that it's very intimidating for new shooters because there's so much to it. There's so many not just to shooting it, but to loading it, the items you need to load it. One, finding it, but also making sure that you have the right stuff. I mean, black powder has so many different brands, and then they're looking at one, f two, f, three, f, four. Well, now what do I need? Then you're looking at, okay, number ten caps. Number eleven caps. Do I need musket caps? There's so much stuff to it, and it's really intimidating for people. But I think I would venture to say, and from what I have seen, it's true, 98% of the black powder muzzle loading community in general are the nicest, genuine people that you'll ever meet. M, I couldn't agree more. You can reach out to anybody, and if you say, what are you shooting? Or, hey, I'm looking for a muz loading shotgun, or I'm looking for a muzle loader in general, where do I go about getting one? We all know someplace, somewhere, somebody that has one for sale or that you can buy one. I mean, you can go buy a brand new pettersoli side by side shotgun. are they the greatest things to ever come off of the face of the earth in the shotgun world? Probably not. Is there worse? Yes. Is there better? Of course. But for a great starting gun that's sub the $1,000 mark, it's great. That's what I started on. I started 100%. I got into muzzleloading shotgun. I won the USHOOT. In, 2010. I won the u shoot. First place prize was a petter soley, side by side, twelve gauge shotgun with screw and chokes. And at the time, I was an offhand shooter. I was like, what the heck am I going to do with this? I got it home, wiped it down with oil, put it in the gun safe. And I was like, I'm not a shotgun shooter. Well, then a couple of buddies that I knew down there, they were like, hey, why don't you come shoot the Calcutta with us? Which is that Wednesday night specialty match. And I was like, all right, I'll go down there. I'll just play with you guys on Wednesday night. Never looked back.

Ethan: Right.

Aaron: Literally is the most fun I've ever had. And I pick up my offhand gun maybe once every other year. Maybe once a year, I might. And, I'm a shotgun shooter now, so there's a lot of starting out shotguns that will get you where you want to go that you can buy, keep, use it, and if you're like. I want to upgrade. They're super easy to pass on, to sell to somebody else, or just keep them, make them a field gun. You want to upgrade your competition gun, but you still want a gun that you don't mind if you have to set it down in a bean field or something like that. Take your petter solely. I mean, they're great guns that are less than I think I want to say they're like $800, which isn't cheap, but for any gun nowadays, there's not a cheap brand new gun.

Ethan: Yeah. That's just kind of where you're at with materials and inflation. that's kind of the price range that you're at. And it's a bummer, but you just have to save for a couple more months or another year or something is how I look at it. That's what I do.

Aaron: We're all kind of affected by the world right now, so we all just kind of have to deal with mean. I hate don't. Nobody likes it.

Ethan: No.

Aaron: What else are you going to think? That's a great way to get started.

M, do you personally notice much difference between the granulations

Aaron: I mean, just a great starting gun talk, to Mike Eater at Flintlocks. he has all the wads and shot that you can need and burn gox, if you're going to burn powder just my two cent making your plug there.

Ethan: We're going to try to get you a sponsorship.

Aaron: Yeah. No, there's a bunch of guys and when it comes to mean, if anybody's getting wants to get technical, I mean, Matt McGraw, he shoots Swiss in his I think it's Swiss. I'm pretty sure he shoots Swiss in his shotgun. I mean, he is that serious. Swiss is so precise and so quality, controlled, I should say that. That's what he shoots. But I think a majority of the guys on there are shooting Go X. We've got several shooters, probably 1015 guys I know shoot old inspired and guys are shooting two F and three F. I shoot three F. Gox. But there's plenty of guys that are shooting two F also.

Ethan: M, do you personally notice much difference between the granulations?

Aaron: granulations? Yes, I think three F is quite a bit I don't know if I'd say quite a bit, but it's hotter. I can shoot an ounce and an 8th of three F to an ounce and an 8th of two F straight. And yeah, I think I feel a little more velocity in the three F. now, is it in my head? Probably 80% of it's in my head. But do I feel that the three F is hotter and I'm getting more speed and I'm breaking the birds because I'm shooting three F? Probably. But if that's just breaking birds, I'll keep on shooting my three F, right?

Ethan: yeah, if it works, don't mess with it.

Aaron: Yeah. but yeah, I don't know. There's a lot of guys that do a lot of different things that it works. It's kind of like monkey see monkey. Do you look at Matt Negral and he went 99 for 100 shooting Swiss. Well, do you go out there and say, I'm going to start shooting Swiss, right? No, you shoot what works for your gun and you shoot what you shoot best that you can financially afford and make the best of it. And as long as you're having fun and hitting some birds, you can't ask for much more than that.

Ethan: I couldn't agree more on that. Find what works and let her rip.

Aaron: Don't church it up dirt.

Ethan: I will say, though, on the subject of muzzleoting shotguns, I cannot believe at what working grade originals will go for.

Aaron: Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Ethan: If you are dead set that you need a muzzle loading side by side. Nothing against the pettersolis at all. At all. But man, I was told this week about three original percussion side by sides for like 750 to 800 apiece.

Aaron: Seriously?

Ethan: Yeah. Out in Pennsylvania. And it's just wow. And it's nuts. I noticed, too. I like looking at the racks at Friendship just to see what's out there. And even on the trap range now and then there'll be a nice piece. Now, it's not going to be necessarily a champion shooter, but if you're wanting something to go hunting with or to bust some birds, mean, it's just mean.

Aaron: I was talking to, Brandon Smith the other day and he was talking, know it'd be nice to have, a new McGraw underhammer. Know it'd be great. Everybody wants the newest, nicest stuff, especially coming from a builder like Matt, matt McGraw. There's not much better when it comes to brand new off the shelf. But is it really going to be that's the cutting edge to break one or two more birds? Probably not. Probably not. I mean, it might make you feel the I got the newest thing, this is the one. But like my dad said, when my dad was still alive and I was shooting offhand guns, he said, Aaron, you know how to shoot. You need to learn how the gun mean, everybody knows how. Well, most listeners probably know how to load a muzzle loader, powder, patch, ball, powder, wads shot, but everybody knows how to do that. You need to learn how to shoot the gun and how to accurately, precisely do what you're trying to do with that gun.

Ethan: Yeah.

Aaron: So there's a lot more to it than just equipment. That's why I said you guys can get a petter solely and crush birds with that petter solely. And then you're like, well, I got something nicer. Well, you might want something nicer, but dag on if you're crushing birds with that $800 petter solely. I'll tell you right now, any listener listening tell you for a fact, if you can find an original shootable, I mean, it doesn't have to be pristine bore, just has to be shootable original. For less than $800, you might as well just go ahead and pick it up, right?

Ethan: I mean, it's a steal at that point.

Aaron: Yeah. My goodness. Yeah, I have noticed that now that you mentioned that. And I think back to the prices of those guns at Friendship for Sale. The prices are not ridiculous.

Ethan: No. I mean, I see stuff on the forums, like Navy arms, like side by sides, and things going for more than nice English or Belgian originals. And I'm not talking like investment guns, big auction house guns, but guns that have worked in the fields and could still have some life in them.

Aaron: I tell you right now, a prime example of you always love to talk to the guy that doesn't know what he went. I went to a gun shop up in Michigan. True story. True as the day is long. Okay? Went to a gun shop in Michigan. This guy had this double barrel in the corner of this gun shop. And I was like, well, kind of piqued my interest there. I'll check that out, looked at it, it was an original crab claw. Wesley Richards hammer gun, crab claw. I'm like, what you got on this? He said, it'll never shoot again. It'll never shoot again. It's just a wall hanger. Never shoot. It's got a dent in the barrel and it'll never shoot. Well, how much do you want for it? And he was like, $125, we'll take it.

Wesley Richards had a dent in his Damascus rifle barrel

Ethan: Oh my gosh.

Aaron: I'm like, yeah, sure, I'll take it. I'm like the locks. Just the locks are worth $500. I'm like, what are you doing in that situation? The guy named his price. I don't want to run over people that are just trying to make a living here, but you name your price for $125 for a Wesley Richards. Yeah, I think I'll take that.

Ethan: So, can you do anything? I mean, how bad was the dent in the barrel?

Aaron: Yeah, it was about probably m eight inches from the muzzle. And it was a pretty nasty dent. I bet you the dent was an 8th inch. It was probably an 8th inch into it. but no, I talked to Steve Chapman and Steve Chapman shoots on the offhand line down there. Super nice guy again. he had a twelve gauge, dent puller for a barrel.

Ethan: Oh, really?

Aaron: This was a ten bore. And I was like, you think it'll work? He said, Give it a shot. What are you out if it doesn't work?

Ethan: Right?

Aaron: So I got it. And slowly but surely, I think it took me 2 hours to get that dent out of that barrel because I was so scared of that Damascus barrel.

Ethan: Oh, yeah, you don't want that to open up.

Aaron: Yeah. So I went so slow and I'd crank it out and then I'd tap, tap, tap, tap, tap all around that dent and then crank it out some more. But anyways, no, the dent came out beautifully. the lever opening lever was broken, missing. Well, I've actually got it to a guy down in. Tennessee right now. He's working on it to just try to fab up an opening lever for it and we'll see what happens. I told him, I said, when you get it fixed, take it out. Shoot. I mean, shoot it.

Ethan: That's awesome.

Aaron: just the prices of stuff, in all honesty, like you said, for the inflation, the economy that we're in right now, prices of muzzle orders. I don't know if I'd say guns in general, but for sure, muzzle orders.

Ethan: They'Re fairly been it's something I'm going to cover at some point. I'm kind of trying to wrap up the research on it this winter. but even just through a basic inflation calculator, when the Thompson Center Hawkin was first released, it was $250. That money today is over $1,200. I don't know anybody that would pay $1,200 today for a Thompson Center Hawkin.

Aaron: No, you'd be lucky to get a fourth of that.

Ethan: Right. I'm not justifying the price increases, but in context, for guys like us, we never saw the 70s or the 80s. We saw a little bit of the age us here a little bit, but we're just kind of stuck where we're at, and it's either buy the stuff and go out there and do it or not. And it kind of stinks to not. So we're out here trying to do it.

Aaron: Yeah. Just like me and you talked about down there after that night match. If Gox is $24 a pound, but it's made in the United States now. Yeah, you're going to pay that Made in America premium. But my love for black powder and just the Camaraderie with everybody down there, I'm not going to say no. I'm not going to Friendship because I can't afford $24 a pound. I think, in the fall, shoot, I went through six pounds. I went through six pounds of powder.

Ethan: That's a chunk, dude, in a week.

Aaron: I'm not made of money over here, but that's my vacation. I love to go down there and shoot and talk to everybody and meet up with people that I don't see. Even you and me, we might see each other outside of the shoots maybe one time, but I only get to catch up with guys like you and others twice a. So that's that's my time. I'll pay the premium of the Made in America, Go X and be able to still shoot, if that's what it mean.

Ethan: That's that's what I do know every paycheck that comes know there's a slice set aside for diapers and groceries and all that stuff, and there's a small slice at the end of it that is little muzzle loading stuff. So that when I go to friendship, I can go and pay to shoot a few matches and grab some powder and get some supplies. And we all do that. That's what we do. And that's what any hobby does. it's just how it goes.

Aaron: Bills still happen whether you have Hobies or not, right? Like you said, you got diapers and bills and gas and food and you and the wife still want to go out and do stuff and go catch a movie or something. It's not going to stop you from doing those things. You just have to be conscious that, hey, June is coming up and I want to do this. Well then you just learn how to budget.

Ethan: Yeah. I mean, it's just like everything else. It's just budgeting on that and how much you want to do. It dictates how much that budget is going to be.

Aaron: But, that's the price you pay to go shoot in the greatest place on earth.

Ethan: That's right, man. There's nothing else like it. I think I'm just now, like this week, coming off of the high from being down there and shooting and having fun and seeing everybody 100%.

Aaron: I bet you I got the guns clean and everything put away. I looked around my house and I was like, well this is kind of sad. I got to wait till June of, next year to go down there to spend a week. We still have some weekend shoots. I think we still have the turkey shoot. And I'm actually heading down there this weekend, for the Boy Scout shoot to volunteer to oh, fantastic. Yes. To help with the Boy Scouts. I don't know how many kids they're going to put through, but I think they said like 100 and 5200 kids were going to shoot through the trap range.

Ethan: Man, that's awesome.

Aaron: Yeah, it's going to be a good time.

I think we spread the message of how fun the trap shooting is

Aaron: Like I said, passing it on to the next guys.

Ethan: Yeah, absolutely. Well, great, man. I really appreciate you coming on and chat with me this evening. I don't want to take up too much of your time, but anything else that you'd like to cover that we may have missed?

Aaron: No, I think we pretty much spread the message of, how fun the trap shooting is and how fun muzzleding, shotgun shooting in general is. It's a blast. If anybody makes the friendship come down and don't hesitate to ask anybody to shoot. we'll get you guys hooked up, mention Ethan and this little podcast. We'll get you guys taken care of. No problem.

I have one question for you. If I was wanting to come down with double barrel in June

Ethan: I have one question for you.

Aaron: Yes, sir.

Ethan: If I was wanting to come down with my double barrel in June and not look like a total fool, how should I practice? What should I do to practice?

Aaron: you got twelve gauge. Yeah, pretty much every twelve gauge. I just suggest ounce and an 8th of powder, whatever powder you prefer. And then, your over powder card. Personally, I take my cushion wads and I cut them in half. Because if I load a full cushion wad, a lot of times that'll blow a hole in my pattern.

Ethan: That's what I was finding.

Aaron: Yes. So I take a half a cushion and then I load an ounce and an 8th of whatever your desired shot. Seven and a half, sixes, whatever you have. And then your overshot. And to practice your trap. do you have not a hand thrower, but yeah, like the foot thrower, the manual spring, and then you pull a string or your foot pedal and it throws the bird. Okay, I'd get that. Like, if you get that, like, 15 foot in front of you throwing straightaways and you're hitting those pretty good, man, that's all you need.

Ethan: Okay, I'll keep that in mind here and see if I can get any of that done.

Aaron: Yeah, I mean, that's the best way that I can do. And now if you get lucky, I don't know what gun ranges you have around you. a lot of ranges have loading benches, or at least a loading loading benches. Like, we are known to have loading benches, but at least like a bench behind their trap line. And if you ask them and you say, hey, I'm shooting muzle and trap, is it okay if I just go out here and get ten birds? A lot of them will let you. I know that if you go to Indiana Gun Club and tell them that you're going to shoot muzle loading trap, that's no problem for them.

Ethan: Awesome.

Aaron: Yes. So that's someplace that people can go and practice. And it's a great facility. I mean, not a little plug for any gun club, but it really is a great facility.

Ethan: That's good to know. I'm always hunting little places to go, a little day trip here and there.

Aaron: Yeah. If anybody has any questions that they want to direct to me exactly, you can find me on that I love Muzleloading page on Facebook. I'm on several of those social medias, but honestly, to reach out to me, that'd probably be the best one. So if you have any questions to me, if I don't know the answer, I will for sure find somebody that does know the answer. So we'll get anybody taken care of with any questions they have.

Ethan: I'd like to thank Aaron again for coming on to the podcast here and spending evening with me, answering questions and sharing some knowledge about muzzleloading shotguns. I'm really interested in obviously all aspects of muzzleloading here, but the muzzle loading shotgun space I think is really interesting because, shotguns are typically thought of as the least accurate arms out there. and then when you throw in m muzzle loading along with that, like Aaron said, there there's just kind of this general thought that these aren't usable, they aren't functional. We've moved on from them. But it's really something to see, Aaron and the other muzzle loading shotgun shooters, really the champions of a lot of the contemporary competition here, going at it and busting. Clays. if you're interested in this, I should have at least one video out around the similar time as this podcast goes out on the Isle of Muzzleading Channel, and I will do my best to link that in the episode description so that you can see at least one of these matches how they go down and get a little bit of a sense and get some visual for what Aaron is talking about with these matches because it is really interesting. Once these matches get going, it's kind of a well oiled machine as everybody starts running through, and busting. Just, it's really neat. And I just want to mention that in case you want a visual to go along with a little bit what we're talking about, I'll also have a link to the I Love Muzzleating Facebook group that Aaron very kindly mentioned. It's kind of our group hangout spot on Facebook. Kind of, takes up the place, really, of an I love muzleloading forum where we can talk a little bit about muzle loading answer questions and share a little bit, from everybody, what we're all doing in muzzleloading and share research and knowledge and tips and tricks and things. so if you're interested in or you have some questions about what we've been talking about, feel free to start up a thread in that Facebook group. if you're not on Facebook, which I totally understand and massively respect, you can reach out to me via email and I'll do my best to put you in contact, with Aaron here. or have him I'll pass along questions and then get them back to you. Get the answers back to you so we can, share a little bit more of this knowledge. Because it's a lot to go through, even in the hour or so that we spent here this evening. There's a lot to digest and I'm sure it's generated some questions, so please ask them. it gets my head going a little bit on answering some of this stuff and trying to answer or find answers, really. And, Aaron so kindly, mentioned his willingness to answer those questions as well. So I really appreciate that.

Ethan: That's all I've got for you this week. We've got, plenty of videos, plenty of articles, and more podcasts on the way. You can find everything@ilovemusloading.com. We've got Muzzleloading news, reviews and much, much more. A lot of goofy times at the range here, but, it's all in good fun, so you can find that, as always@ilovemuzzloading.com. Once again, I'm Ethan. I love muzzleloading. Thank you so much for listening. We'll catch you next time.